Does Money Really Matter in Football Success?

When I was at Clemson, it was I pay thirty a year (I guess inflation keeps it moving up; probably 300 a year now). You are correct, IPTAY predates TDP; I didn’t give him credit for that. BUT, he has administered a good program that beats us by $35M a year. Just wondering if we should shift some of the discussion to this area. we can beat up poor Mikey for all his warts, but maintaining a relevant program with a fraction of the resources is a pretty good job. Can’t afford Monken, our facilities are falling behind, recruiting budget is too low - all comments I have read on various threads here. Gundy can’t fix any of those. He did a brilliant job of representing OSU on the film room, and has been a great ambassador thru the years. Maybe we alumni should put up or shut up. Maybe we need to look at Mike Holder’s staff and give him some resources to aid in his success.

More to the point, we need to think outside the box and come up with $35 to $100M a year to help Mike recruit better. He is a pretty good CEO.

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Indoctrinating people into donating like this for generations is tough to create from scratch. I’m not sure the pitch that would actually work on thousands of people at this point.

I agree with you; it will take someone smarter that me to develop a program to extract funds from the unwilling! But, we want Chubba to win the Heisman, so we all clamor for a campaign to get his name out there. Well, why not pitch our alma mater the same way.

Outliers for what exactly? Revenue?

Honestly asking because I know Oregon has Nike behind them but I am not sure that falls under revenue

Yes. Outliers meaning ranked in the CFP top 10, but not top 10 in revenue. I would assume any cash Nike gives 'em is in the revenue column.

Not sure where to check but this seems wrong. I remember looking into OSU football revenue vs donations and they were kept in separate columns. I could def be wrong though

(LONG POST) I did a bunch of research on this last year. Basically summary is money is almost everything, and OSU can’t win a national title with current landscape. These numbers are dated since I did this about 13 months ago, I think Clemson is at $120m in revenue for last numbers reported. They’re the outlier.

Recruiting ranking over last 6 cycles via 247, and how successful they were over that time period

Tier 1 - Recruiting Rankings of 1-10.99
Alabama
Georgia
Ohio State
LSU
USC
FSU
Auburn
Clemson
Oklahoma

1. This group has an average recruiting ranking of 1-10.99
2. This group has won all 5 College Football playoff championships
3. This group has occupied 16 of the 20 available spots in the CFP
4. This group has won 16 of the 22 conference titles, and lost 3 - other 6 Mich St, Stanford, Oregon, Penn St, Washx2
5. This group has made 19 conference championship games, 2.11 CCG appearances/team. 
6. This group has an average Revenue of $153.25 million, and average Revenue ranking of #9 with no team generating less than $113 million.  
7. This group averaged 10.5 wins/season

Tier 2 - Recruiting Rankings of 11 - 25.99
Texas A&M
Florida
Tennessee
Notre Dame
Miami
Stanford
Ole Miss
Texas
UCLA
Michigan
Oregon
Penn State
South Carolina
Washington
Mississippi State

1. This group has an average recruiting ranking of 11-25.99
2. This group has won 0 College Football playoff championships
3. This group has occupied 3 of the 20 available spots in the CFP
4. This group has won 5 of the 22 conference titles, and lost 4.  
5. This group has made 9 conference championship games, 0.6 CCG appearances/team.
6. This group has average Revenue of $148.5 million, with no team generating less than $100 million.  
7. This group averaged 7.95 wins/season.  

Tier 3 - Recruiting Rankings of 26+ w/Coaches that have been there 4+ year and consistent bowl teams (similar to OSU)
Virginia Tech
Michigan State
Oklahoma State
Wisconsin
TCU
Washington State
Iowa
Northwestern

1. This group has an average recruiting ranking of 26+ (tenured Coach, unique playing style)
2. This group has won 0 College Football playoff championships
3. This group has occupied 1 of the 20 available spots in the CFP
4. This group has won 1 of the 22 conference titles, and lost 6.  
5. This group has made 8 conference championship games, 1 CCG appearances/team.  
6. This group has average Revenue of $107.16 million, with no team generating less than $64 million.  
7. This group averaged 8.78 wins/season. 

TAKEAWAYS
1. There are 0 teams in the top 25 in recruiting rankings that are outside of the top 31 in revenue rankings. Direct correlation with revenue being a condition to be able to recruit well. Good revenue doesn’t always mean good recruiting (Iowa, Wisconsin for example), but that is the exception, not the rule.
2. To recruit at top 25 level you need to hit $116 million threshold.
3. To recruit at top 10 level you have to win AND hit $140 million threshold. Clemson is the exception, recruiting at avg ranking of 10 at $113 million. Be like Clemson.
4. To win a national title you need to recruit at top 10 level and be top 15 in revenue. Exception is Clemson, be like Clemson. The floor is around $140 million.
5. Tier 2 average revenue is essentially the same as Tier 1, even if you take Texas and TAMU out they still avg $140 million. Which means execution establishes the difference between tier 1 and tier 2, not resources.
To make a conference title game, there are no real correlations between any recruiting rankings or revenue thresholds outside of the Tier 1. You’re twice as likely to make a conference title game recruiting at a top 10 level, and you’re actually more likely to make a conference title game if you have program stability and player retention with low revenue, than recruiting at 11-26 level and poor execution. Meaning better execution (teams in tier 3) are able to make up the difference to a certain threshold, but when you mix money and execution the gap is too large.

Player retention - look back to 2014/2015 classes
-I went back and looked at classes from 2014 and 2015 to figure out how many players stayed around for 3/4 years, and how many transferred or were dismissed from the program.

TAKEAWAYS
1. Teams that are doing more with their classes are only losing 20-25% of their class to transfer. Penn State, Wisconsin and Oklahoma State all had significantly lower ranked classes than Texas A&M, Florida and Tennessee but ended up with higher win total over 6 season period I tracked (9.5 vs. 7.6) because they retained a higher percentage of their players of the course of their career.
2. Meaning player development/retention is more important than recruiting at a good (not great) level.
3. Player retention has become even more important given the 25 player class limits set by NCAA.
4. Being a transfer friendly program will become as important as recruiting. Need to be on cutting edge of transfers, because even top recruits are more willing to consider programs in the Tier 3 after spending a few seasons at a blue blood. Recruits become more practical in their decision making process once the transfer - finding places that make sense for them instead of falling for what is fanciest at the moment. Were talking about 17-18 year old kids making decisions vs. 20-21 year olds making decisions. Big Difference.
5. Alabama is winning on all levels. They’re recruiting at the highest level and retaining/developing their players.
This was small sample size, transfers are a problem at all programs. But as you can see they’re program killers at some. While other programs are able to replenish quickly, and other programs are able to retain players and become transfer destinations and thriving.

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I kinda hope that this puts into perspective that it’s not as easy as “just need to recruit better” or putting it on Gundy that he’s had, really, three bad years out of 14. Could probably call 2019, 2012, 2007, and 2006 mediocre… but overall he’s done great with the overall fight that OSU has to fight.

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Thanks Adam! You da man. This is about what I remembered from my previous research, but you packaged it way more nicely. Gundy has raised the floor at OSU on a beer budget, and consequently raised expectations to the point that many fans irrationally want his head if he can’t pull off a miracle. He has put our program on the radar as a nationally relevant, consistently solid program and a few more years at this level will beget continued success.

We need to double our revenue to get to where most fans now want us to be. Frankly, beating up gundy, coaches and the administration doesn’t accomplish much and just pisses everybody off. What we need is answers, suggestions, etc. Let’s start the discussion.

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I have no idea how to get this across to people so that they actually understand

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Honestly, most the kids in school right now have no idea how important Boone actually was in all this. After looking at all that, holy dam. We would be Kansas if it weren’t for him

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Can I use all thousand of my new likes on this??

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I’ve given to academics fairly consistently. We have a baby coming so I haven’t this year. I was in the Posse for a few years and told them just to put my portion to anything that needed it. Football gets most donations so I ended up supporting Cowgirl soccer. Glad I did and am proud of all they’ve accomplished.

Anyway, one of the ways we’re ranked academically is money. We’re at $964 million in endowment, OU is at $1.73 billion. Clemson is only $742 million, so we have that!

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Yet Clemson is 224 spots ahead of us in academic rankings…

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That’s impressive for a school in the south.

Hmm, money isn’t everything. My wife was an admissions councilor and could find all kinds of ways to spin Texas Wesleyan as a top school. Forbes is pretty legit, though. Oddly enough there is a correlation between sports and academics, if nothing else name recognition helps. We got many more people at OSU from the west coast after our Fiesta Bowl victory.

Last I heard OU was pushing research to try for AAU status and OSU was helping. We’ve lost a lot of academic clout with the defections.

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This is so good.

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Today at 0300, that total endowment amount increased by 25 million dollars. The Ferguson Family donated 50 million to the College of Agriculture, with 25 million being for a new building and 25 million being for endowments. Good day to be a cowboy.

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Really glad to hear that $25MM went to the endowment. I assumed all $50MM went to the new ag hall. Which would have been great as well, but I it’s good to build the endowment. Now we just need someone to write an $11MM check to get us to the billion mark.

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Does anyone know if there is a list of the endowments for Big 12 schools?